For information on editing, see the description of Plan 9 wiki syntax.
! rsc9 before we get into deeper things, could someone tell ! me why native awk matters at all? ! ! uriel rsc9: because non-native awk sucks ! rsc9: I'm trying to do shell redirection from system(), ! and it's just anoying as hell ! ! newsham hey russ, I have a question for you about 9p/auth. ! when you read the protocol from the remote I get "p9sk1@domain\0", ! but it seems kenfs returns "v.2 p9sk1@..." . What does ! that mean? Is this part of the negotiation documented ! somewhere? ! ! Major-Wi yeah, like system() uses ksh ! ! uriel rsc9: it just doesn't work as expected ! ! rsc9 so system() uses ksh. any other problems? ! ! Major-Wi i thought the plan 9 shell was rc? ! ! uriel rsc9: return codes for system are also weird ! ! rsc9 "it just doesn't work as expected" isn't very specific. ! okay, so system() is different. other things? ! ! Major-Wi exits ! ! uriel rsc9: using ksh to run stuff from awk in Plan 9 is ! not what anyone would expect(and again, I haven't managed ! to get even that to work properly... but maybe I was ! doing something wrong) ! Major-Willard: yes, exits is another one ! ! rsc9 okay, system and exits. more? ! ! noselasd I think it boils down to people not liking APE. On ! the other hand , it's easy to keep in sync with bwks ! AWK :-) ! ! uriel rsc9: I think I had another one, but now I forgot :) ! ! Major-Wi it's not native ! ! newsham if you used rc instead of ksh to run system(..) wouldnt ! that require more work when porting non p9 code? ! ! uriel newsham: if I want loonix I know where to find it ! ! newsham uriel: system() is from unix, no? ! ! Major-Wi well, on 9 you'd assume rc ! ! uriel newsham: awk is not just part of ape, awk is a fundamental ! tool of the system and should work as part of the system ! ! Major-Wi yeah ! ! rsc9 e already change little pieces of awk rather than use ! bwk's distribution as is. utf handling is one area. ! i'm happy to hear that we should use our own system() ! and exit() too. ! ! uriel newsham: no, in awk you really need to get into the ! shell to do many things, specially in "real" awk that ! is rather limited in functionality(and I like it that ! way) ! ! uriel rsc9: I think I had some nasty problem with something ! else, but I'm sorry I forgot what it was, I will let ! you know when I remember... :/ ! ! rsc9 detailing specific things are just way better than ! "i made a native awk; let's use it". ! otherwise we end up in the cadt model of system development. ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, I agree ! ! Major-Wi i believe it should ALL be native ! ! uriel rsc9: I was just a bit frustrated as my understanding ! is that awk was treated more as a "unix backwards compat" ! thing rather than a first class Plan 9 member ! ! Major-Wi is this lunix or 9? ! ! rsc9 awk is a kind of middle ground. ! ! uriel Major-Willard: well, maybe we can get there some time, ! let's start with somethin and we will see where we ! get ! rsc9: yes, I guess it has a bit of a dual role ! ! rsc9 boyd, you can be a purist all you want, but once you ! port gs for the 100th time because they released a ! new version, you get tired of it. ! ! Major-Wi awk? doesn't that get used to mk the kernel? ! ! uriel rsc9: still, i feel that there is no substitute for ! it in Plan 9 world, but then I think Rob never was ! a big awk fan, right? :) ! ! rsc9 awk is a plan 9 utility as much as sed is. most of ! our awk programs don't use system() so that particular ! part isn't as well done. but bwk's awk doesn't do utf ! and the plan 9 one does. so there are accomodations. ! okay, enough of awk. ! ! musasabi Making more changes than necessary just makes updating ! ports more pain - and that time could most probably ! be spent on something better. ! ! rsc9 musasabi: exactly. ! jmk is not writing a new installer. as far as i know, ! no one is. ! ! uriel still, awk is not such a big deal, specially if the ! issues with calling external commands from it and exits ! are fixed; I was just a bit frustrated the other day ! trying to get my awk code to work, so I'm sorry if ! I made so much fuss about it ! ! Major-Wi rsc9: ken called me 'an enthusiast' ! ! uriel rsc9: yes, that has been cleaned up, still _someone_ ! somehow came up with the idea that he was... ! (thru some email that no one else has seen) ! Major-Willard: I think that quite deffines you :) ! ! rsc9 well don't blame me for that. if you can track it down, ! great, but he's not. ! ! uriel rsc9: I don't blame anyone, and I'm sorry if it seemed ! like it, I just think that if the process was a bit ! more transparent that kind of misunderstandings would ! not happen ! ! musasabi What I think would be quite nice would be an easy way ! to follow plan9 development - what is changed where ! and why. ! ! rsc9 this is really what i wanted to talk about. ! ! uriel yes :) ! ! Major-Wi uriel: i'd pissed off some guy at USG and he asked ! ken WTF? ! ! rsc9 as far as following what has happened, /dist/replica/plan9.log ! is a great start. ! ! noselasd Well, if someone thought someone was writing a new ! installer, all it'd take was a post to 9fans :-) ! ! newsham uriel: uh, you're suggesting that no one do work without ! first declaring that they're starting? ! ! uriel I got a list of items I would like to see happening ! in the Plan 9 dev community :) ! ! rsc9 boyd: and ken said "he pisses everyone off; don't worry ! about it." ! (actually i have no idea) ! ! uriel newsham: no ! newsham: but it's hard for people that comes new to ! know what is going on, or what is the dev model ! who is in charge, and so on, patch is great, but it's ! not clear who/when/what use it ! it's no clear who decides if a patch goes in or not(it's ! clear for us, but not for someone coming from outside ! that has not follwed things for quite some time) ! ! newsham uriel: I dont find it any better or worse than other ! projects (eg. cygwin or freebsd) ! ! rsc9 to the extent that anyone is in charge, it's the people ! who work for bell labs. but mainly it feels like more ! of a collaboration. ! ! uriel that has some advantages, of course, as sets a barrier ! of entry, but I think right now that barrier is a bit ! too arbitrary ! ! rsc9 jmk and i are the ones who apply patches. ! ! newsham in most projects an "outsider" would come up with a ! patch, send it to the person they think is most appropriate ! and either they would add the patch or not. ! ! Major-Wi ACTION thinks an applied patch should (auto) mail ! 9fans ! ! uriel Major-Willard: not 9fans, but we need a commits list, ! I'm going to hack it up soon ! ! rsc9 how about an applied patch appends an entry to a log ! on sources. ! ! uriel rsc9: it's easy to patch those things on top of patch, ! but not all changes go thru patch ! ! newsham uriel: see /n/sources/patch/applied ! ! __20h__ Boyd, you never joined the NetBSD-cvs ML. ! ! uriel newsham: I know, as I said, I'm going to write an script ! that generates emails from that ! ! rsc9 patch/list applied ! ! musasabi rsc9: what do you mean by /dist/replica/plan9.log - ! I can only find /dist/replica/client/plan9.log which ! is not very helpful.. (sorry for the stupid question) ! ! rsc9 musasabi: that's what i meant. ! ! uriel rsc9: that is not an issue, as I said, it works great, ! the only problem is that not all chagnes go thru patch ! ! rsc9 but all changes do go into the plan9.log. if you look ! at the changes and can't tell why they were made, then ! it's fine to ask on 9fans. ! ! mjl- musasabi: you can track all file changes with it, just ! not the description ! ! uriel rsc9: it would be nice if there was a single path, ! and the comments are really helpful, not everyone wants ! to look thru all diffs... ! rsc9: also it's nice to see who did the changes, to ! maybe comment/ask that person... but maybe that can ! be done with sources now... ! ! rsc9 comments just aren't going to happen. i thought about ! it for a while, but it's not the way the plan 9 guys ! at bell labs work. ! someone familiar with the source could certainly read ! the diffs and maintain a changelog. uriel? ! ! uriel rsc9: hehehe.. ! rsc9: well, then I guess I will try to hack something ! that picks up the things from sources... ! ! noselasd I would be *mad* if I had to add comment to every thing ! I change in projects at work.. ! ! rsc9 the fact of the matter is that if you care about why ! things were changed, then you're already reading the ! source. ! ! newsham is it really needed though? ! ! uriel rsc9: but it woud be nice to at least know who did ! the change, I will look if that can be get from sources ! ! rsc9 ls -lm will show you who pushed it out to sources. ! ! noselasd So I actually understand adding comments may not be ! "doable" :.-) ! ! uriel rsc9: not everyone does, I know many people that follows ! the commits lists of various projets, and they don't ! reall all the src, they just read mostly the comments ! to know what is going on ! (ask Oksel) ! ! __20h__ Comments? I don't even add such things into the code. ! ! mjl- i'm oksel, but under plan9 ! ! rsc9 so fine, then maybe someone maintaining a changelog ! would be a good contribution, but it won't be any of ! us. ! ! newsham uriel: so if you read through the patch/applied and ! miss out on 5 or 10% of the additions, are you missing ! that much? ! ! uriel __20h__: code should be slef documenting, changes are ! different ! ! mjl- anyway, users could easily make commit logs ! ! rsc9 the bulk of the changes come from patch anyway. ! ! musasabi Usually when following a typical open source project ! I just subscribe to the cvs list and get mails about ! commits and look at the diff if the message indicates ! it is something interesting. Of course one can allways ! diff but that is not very nice to look "is this something ! interesting". ! ! mjl- once a simple mechanisme to comment on changes has ! been mae ! ! newsham if you're actively modifying code, you'll notice if ! there's a replica/pull that affects code you're working ! on and you'll know the code enough to dif ! if you're just trying to get a feel for "whats going ! on", its probably not that important if you miss an ! item or two ! ! rsc9 okay, i think we've beat this changelog thing into ! the ground. ! ! mjl- yups ! ! noselasd musasabi: But what is the usefulness of that ? It's ! "nice to know" bot imo not significant.. ! ! rsc9 i'd be happy to have someone maintain a changelog on ! the side and email us if they want to know more about ! a change that wasn't done through patch. ! ! uriel noselasd9: it's more significant for people that are ! just starting to get into the system ! ! rsc9 switching to patch acceptance criteria (and feel free ! to add this to the wiki). ! jmk or i apply patches. acceptance criteria aren't ! well-defined, but basically i want to see: ! ! uriel rsc9: yes, documenting that a bit would be very nice ! ! rsc9 1. an explanation of what the problem is ! ! noselasd uriel: Ok - thatks a point. ! ! rsc9 2. a minimal set of fixes, with no gratuitous changes ! 3. the new code has to look like (style-wise) the old ! code ! 4. if the external behavior changes, document the change ! ! m4dh4tt3 #2 meaning to include no whitespace or formatting changes, ! yes? ! ! rsc9 #2 yes. ! ! m4dh4tt3 that makes sense ! most other projects i know of have the same requirements ! ! rsc9 if i get patches that don't do those 4, then sometimes ! i sorry them ! with a note explaining what i'd like to see in a future ! patch. ! ! musasabi as a sidenote would patches adding commentation to ! existing code be welcome? ! ! m4dh4tt3 gratuitous changes of that nature make it more difficult ! for the reviewer to actually review the code ! ! uriel yes, sounds very reasonable, just what we needed ! ! rsc9 but most of the time i just bring the patch up to snuff ! myself, noting what i did, and then apply it. ! ! uriel rsc9: do you want to make a wiki page about "how to ! contribute"? or should someone else(me?) do it based ! on what you said here? ! ! rsc9 o for example i edit almost all the man page changes ! that get submitted for english and man page conventions. ! i haven't edited the wiki in years. i'd prefer someone ! else do it. ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, I will do ! ! rsc9 my first letters of sentences are occasionally getting ! chopped off due to an acme irc bug. y'all will have ! to cope. ;-) ! ! uriel heh, you should try irc7, seems very popular this days ! :) ! ! Major-Wi ACTION agrees with that despite #3, but learnt the ! necessity for #3 while hacking the 7th Ed sh ! ! m4dh4tt3 thanks, uriel. i was going to jump in, but i don't ! have a drawterm open ATM ! ! Major-Wi yo m4 ! ! rsc9 if you create a patch and then use patch/email to give ! us your email address, you get email notification when ! the patch is applied/sorried. ! ! __20h__ Irc7 only supports one channel. ! ! m4dh4tt3 rsc9: i think we can interpolate ;-) ! ! rsc9 any other patch questions? ! ! Major-Wi deletions? ! ! uriel rsc9: "saved"? ! ! m4dh4tt3 rsc9: thanks for providing those guidelines for the ! community. from the patches i've submitted in the past ! (before patch), i pretty much gathered all that, but ! it's good for the rest of the community to know. ! ! newsham 20h: irc7 is f2f's server/client? if so, you can open ! multiple windows in different channels, and you can ! still use multiple channels in one window if you dont ! bind the window to a channel ! ! rsc9 patch/note saved/whatever-is-there will tell you about ! saved. ! ! uriel rsc9: seems a bit weird and redundant, just reject ! it and sugest put into sources dir ! ! rsc9 saved is for things that aren't going in just because ! they don't fit in/feel like plan 9. ! ! uriel rsc9: yes, but then why wasn't rio-bg saved? ;P ! ! rsc9 sorry is for things that have been rejected. the intent ! is to clean up applied and sorry once in a while so ! they don't grow without bound. ! ! newsham btw, does patch/create work in acme? the first tiem ! I tried it in acme I had issues but I dont know if ! it was just the long delay that threw me off or the ! bits that make it put the rio window into editing mode ! (its been too long for me to recall exactly) ! ! musasabi A simple "how to contribute a patch" example could ! be nice in the wiki. ! ! uriel rsc9: my point is, why not just let people maintain ! external patches in their own dirs... ! ! rsc9 i actually thought rio-bg was the one i saved. i was ! surprised earlier today when i noticed i hadn't. ! ! newsham musa: there's an example in the man page, no? ! ! rsc9 patch/create assumes it can turn on hold mode. it probably ! doesn't work well in win windows. ! ! uriel rsc9: if the sources "private" dirs are organized a ! bit better, I think that would be a much better place ! for things that are not ready, or don't even fit into ! the main distribution, but that some people might like ! to keep around ! ! newsham that would be good to note in the wiki too. (and maybe ! the man page) ! ! uriel yup, I have in my TODO list looking over patch/*; it ! could use some polishing ! BUGS? :) ! ! Major-Wi deletions ! ! uriel but should be easy to fix, I hope.. ! ! rsc9 boyd: fix deletions and i'll apply the patch. ! ! uriel what is "deletions"? sorry, I missed that ! ! __20h__ Patch doesn't support the deletion of files. ! ! uriel ah, I see, yes ! ! musasabi newsham: that does not say anything about adding/removing ! files (or directories) ! ! mjl- patching files into existence works ! ! rsc9 deletions are not very common so i'm not very worried. ! adding files does work. ! i moved some stuff into patch/save ! saved ! any other patch complaints? ! ! uriel rsc9: I think nothing significant... I would say that ! still would be nice if the labs would use it, even ! without comments, but well.. ! ! musasabi an email notification to a list when something happens ! could be nice, but by no means very important. ! ! __20h__ What if I want to patch a saved patch? ! ! uriel (maybe a way to just have it apply automatically pathces ! if you have the right perms ! musasabi: I will do that ! ! __20h__ There's an typo in the rio-background. ! ! musasabi uriel: thanks. ! ! rsc9 it can't automatically apply patches because of the ! way we keep our internal source tree in sync with sources. ! ! uriel musasabi: the only thing is that with the current system ! I have to make something that checks both sources/replica ! and patch... which is a bit anoying as they look qutie ! different ! ! Major-Wi nah auto-application is a bad idea ! ! rsc9 patching saved patches doesn't seem lke a very common ! case. ! you don't need the check patch. patch is for things ! pending on sources. ! ! newsham so the patch/email thing causes automatic notification? ! What about mailing a mailing list as well? That might ! be useful. ! ! uriel rsc9: one thing, what about keeping public the list ! of changes from your private tree to the public one? ! (if that is possible) ! ! rsc9 what do you mean? ! ! Major-Wi like i said, mail 9fans ! ! rsc9 mailing 9fans will drive away all the people who don't ! care. ! ! newsham major: i dont think everything should go to 9fans ! ! uriel rsc9: jmk mentioned in his email that you guys get ! an email every day with all the files that are different ! in the distro and in your local tree. ! ! rsc9 e're talking pretty trivial stuff a lot of the time. ! ! newsham but creating a new mailing list (ie. googlegroups.com) ! is really easy these days ! ! Major-Wi look we have 250 patches ! ! __20h__ Not googlegroups.com. ! ! uriel rsc9: yes, but it's small things that make the whole ! dev model ;) ! ! Major-Wi that"s zip compared to the spam and other crapa ! ! __20h__ Google is the commercial NSA of the future. ! ! uriel __20h__: I'm sure nashi can setup some lists in mordor ! ! rsc9 i don't want to make that list public. if we want the ! change to go out, we'll push the file. seeing the file ! list doesn't strike me as very interesting. ! ! Major-Wi __20h__: :) ! ! newsham 20h: and patch/applied info is sensitive because? ! ! rsc9 i'd be happy to append the mails to a mailbox file ! on sources. if people want to watch it and generate ! auto emails from it then fine. ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, I jsut thought it was interesting if someone ! was working on something that had pending changes or ! something, but well ! newsham: good question ! rsc9: sounds like a cool idea ! ! rsc9 uriel: that's not the way that list works. if something ! has changed in our main tree, it almost always goes ! out. people working on little projects keep it in their ! own home directories for the most part. ! the bulk of the files are config. ! ! __20h__ newsham, it's like who cares about privacy, because ! they knew already everything? ! ! rsc9 the only two things sitting in the tree that are major ! are software cursor support (waiting to finish vbe) ! and usb storage (from /n/sources/rmiller, and he asked ! us not to put it in the tree yet) ! ! uriel rsc9: I see, that makes sense, then it would be nice ! what interesting work might be lurking in the corners ! of home dirs, but I guess that is harder ;) ! ! rsc9 that's things sitting in our internal tree that aren't ! on sources. ! ! newsham 20h: i'm not sure what the issue would be with the ! nsa (or any other govt organization) seeing any public ! mailing list. its a public list. ! ! Major-Wi deletions? how about the 0 mode 0 size file? ! ! uriel rsc9: there is people outside the labs working in vbe(I ! guess you know alreay)... ! ! __20h__ newsham, it's about Google -- but that's not the discussion. ! ! uriel rsc9: and I know some people interested in hacking ! usb storage ! ! rsc9 i saw some comment about andrey having special access ! to insider info in the logs. that's not really true. ! we'll talk to anyone who emails us. it's just that ! a lot of people seem content to speculate on irc instead ! of dashing off an email. ! ! newsham irc rumors are more enticing than reality. ! ! musasabi rsc9: well most newbies don't know who to send the ! email ;) ! ! rsc9 they handed the vbe code to me to put into the tree, ! and i'm still integrating it. i'm working on putting ! it in aux/vga instead of 9load. if someone wants to ! help, feel free to email me. ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, sorry, that is my fault, but well, one doesn't ! want to bother you guys too much with obvious questions... ! ! rsc9 musasabi: then it's up to you old-time irc hands to ! point them in the right direction. or you email us ! instead. ! ! uriel rsc9: if a contact point was documented somewhere it ! would be nice, can we put your email in the wiki as ! "contact point"(maybe better 9fans)... which brings ! us to plan9-dev list... ! ! rsc9 uriel: people who want to hack usb storage can look ! in /n/sources/miller and then contact richard with ! changes. he's heading that up. ! ! uriel I understand that some people don't feel confortable ! discusing serious stuff in 9fans due to all the noise, ! but it seems that plan9-dev failed... ! ! rsc9 boyd: treating deletions as size 0 files (no need for ! mode 0) sounds fine to me. ! ! Major-Wi well, i like overkill ! ! uriel rsc9: do you think a low-noise forum is needed for ! dev discusion? ! ! rsc9 i'm glad plan9-dev failed. i don't like the dichotomy. ! i refused to subscribe for quite a while, although ! i wish i'd been there to help with designing 9p2000.u. ! i think 9fans is a fine place for dev discussion. it ! happens occasionally. ! ! Major-Wi and it saw your can't read it and there's nothing in ! it ! it says ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, I see, I guess people will have to put up ! with 9fans then, the problem I see is that lots of ! disucion seems to happen in private email instead.. ! :/ ! which leaves most people out of the loop ! ! rsc9 mode 0 files are a pain because you can't even open ! them. ! ! Major-Wi and /n/sources? how does one get a dir? ! ! uriel Major-Willard: I was going to get there next ! ! rsc9 that will happen on a dev-only list too. the only reason ! to have a dev-only list is that people on 9fans don't ! want to see the dev chatter, which i very much doubt. ! ! uriel ;) ! ! musasabi btw would making a common readline function (basically ! the readln function which is copy/pasted in many places ! make sense? (just found myself copying the code and ! I could submit a patch if such a thing would be wanted ! and I knew the correct lib for it) ! ! uriel rsc9: I thought it was the other way around, people ! interested in dev wasn't interesed in 9fans noise, ! so they used priv email instead,,, I guess I was wrong ! again :) ! ! noselasd 9fans doesn't seem to be the most overloaded list. ! Dev discussion there would fit fine, no ? ! ! Major-Wi READLINE? are you MAD? ! ! rsc9 plan9-dev got created because of the ridiculous amounts ! in spam back in july. that's solved. ! ! uriel musasabi: over my dead body ! +quintile ! ! __20h__ Boyd, there's no GNU inside. ;) ! ! musasabi Major-Willard: not *nix readline. ! ! rsc9 you don't need readline unless you want to read a password. ! ! uriel rsc9: good, then that is solved ! ! rsc9 if you're reading from a console, read() returns one ! line at a time. ! ! noselasd musasabi: mouse around :-) ! ! Major-Wi i don't need readline() i have hold mode ! ! uriel rsc9: souces dirs.. ! rsc9: I documented in the wiki that to get a sources ! dir one should email you or rsc(I hope you don't mind ! :)) ! ! rsc9 the usual thing with sources dirs is to mail me or ! jmk and we'll create it. boyd is an exception. ! ! uriel rsc9: the thing is that there is no criteria to who ! gets one dir and who dosn't ! rsc9: that dosn't seem fair to me ! ! musasabi rsc9: but I don't want to assume stdin is a console ! - and the existing code seems read one char at a time ! till it gets to the end of the line.. ! ! uriel (actually it seems plain stupid to me0 ! ! rsc9 jmk wasn't feeling very kind when boyd asked. ! ! uriel rsc9: well, are you feeling more kind today? :) ! ! Major-Wi rsc9: should be a fortune "<rsc9> the usual thing with ! sources dirs is to mail me or jmk and we'll create ! it. boyd is an exception." ! ! rsc9 ;-) ! i'll make boyd a directory but first i want to put ! all the directories in a subdirectory ! instead of the root. ! ! uriel I personally would be upset if someone that has done ! so much for Plan 9 was left out, I think it's just ! _wrong_; boyd might be a difficult person, but that ! is no excuse not to let him contribute ! ! rsc9 choices for names? /n/sources/users/foo? /n/sources/userstuff/foo? ! ! uriel rsc9: contrib? ! ! rsc9 i'm not getting into a discussion about boyd. ! ! Major-Wi usr ! ! rsc9 there's already a contrib. ! usr is home directories which these aren't. ! ! __20h__ home :P ! ! Major-Wi they sort of are ! ! rsc9 contrib is good. ! ! uriel rsc9: yes, that needs to be cleaned up a bit, there ! is "contrib", "extras" "cvs", ... and so on, quite ! messy.. ! ! mjl- there already is a contrib... yeah ! ! quintile community ? ! ! Major-Wi no ! ! uriel quintile: too long :) ! ! Major-Wi contrib ! ! musasabi users and contrib sound nice. ! ! Major-Wi or wip ! ! uriel vt3 and I volunter to keep an index of the stuff in ! contrib then ! ! rsc9 great. ! ! uriel rsc9: some guidelines for how to use sources dirs, ! similar to the ones you gave for patch would be very ! apreciated ! (mostly to keep some order) ! ! __20h__ What's the 9grid dir for? ! ! uriel (and I guess somethign like http://plan9.bell-labs.com/9grid/AUP.html ! can be linked from the wiki) ! __20h__: good question ! ! noselasd Ick. did irc7 swallow a line of mine :- ! ! uriel (and links into my next question, that is what is up ! with *.grid.bell-labs.com.) ! ! rsc9 i don't know anything about grid. ask andrey. ! ! __20h__ Ok. ! ! rsc9 okay, i created stuff in /n/sources/contrib. please ! move your fiels. ! ! uriel rsc9: what about *.grid.bell-labs.com then? quintile ! said it's still up and running, but there is no way ! to get new accounts? ! ! rsc9 i don't know anything about grid. ask andrey. ! i believe new accounts only go to people contributing ! resources. but i know nothing. it's presotto and ron's ! baby, and it's mostly stalled. ! ! uriel ok, will do then, I thought he didn't know as he was ! around when it was discused ! well, I was asking because all the other 9grid.??-s ! poping up over the wrold.. ! ! rsc9 i don't know anything. ! ! uriel OK, I will nag f2f when he is back :) ! rsc9: about p9p and merging the docs.. ! ! rsc9 about sources/contrib, it's for posting software for ! plan 9 users. if you use up too much disk or post crap ! we'll probably do something. ! ! uriel Oksel: and I ahve looked at it, and it looks nasty.. ! the changes are too many and too hard to check which ! ones should go and with ones are p9p specific.. ! ! m4dh4tt3 rsc9: the perms on my dir in contrib are incorrect ! :-) ! ! rsc9 fixed ! ! m4dh4tt3 thx ! ! Major-Wi methinks one dir is missing ! ! uriel my proposal is to merge both documentation, and have ! an extra section for p9p specific pages, and an extra ! section inside pages that are different documenting ! the diferences for p9p ! ! rsc9 no. ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, but I tell you, merging back and forth is ! unpractical.. ! ! rsc9 i don't want p9p to pollute the main distribution. ! changes aren't frequent enough to merit that. ! ! uriel I think that you will find it harder and harder to ! keep them in sync... ! ! rsc9 if we can get them in sync to start, then keeping them ! in sync is easy. ! ! uriel well, if people wants to start working on the Plan ! 9 docs, how will you merge back? it goes both ways.. ! rsc9: it's hard for people that might have access to ! one but not the other ! ! rsc9 i know when the last time i merged was, and occasionally ! i run diff to see what's happened on sources in the ! last (say) 3 months and then do it that way. ! everyone has access to the dump on sources and to the ! cvs history for p9p. both let you diff by date. ! the trick is getting them up to date. ! that is, in sync the first time. ! regardless of what solution we decide on going forward, ! that initial work needs to happen. ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, we will try, but seems like a tedious and ! futile task from our POV.. ! ! rsc9 i don't see why it's hard to figure out, given some ! diffs, whether they apply to plan 9. ! the way i see it is this. ! the goal is to bring the plan 9 man pages up to date. ! i already identified some places ! where they were out of date and fixed it in p9p when ! i did the initial p9p man pages. ! diffing p9p and plan 9 man pages just points out some ! places where you need to update the plan 9 pages. ! i'm not saying you should diff the pages that have ! changed dramatically, like intro(1) ! ! uriel yes, but some times it's hard to tell.. ! ! mjl- i've only looked at acid, and it's a bit of a problem ! that i've never used it beyond lstk() ! so a bit hard to know what applies to both now ! ! uriel you have to actually look thru the diff to see which ! changes are p9p only and which are p9... ! ! mjl- since i also don't use the p9p version ! ! rsc9 acid is a tough one. i'd skip acid. ! ! mjl- guess that's a problem of too little experience... ! ok ! will look further then. already have some scripts that ! show diffs btw (if anyone wants them) ! ! rsc9 if you diff all the pages and make a big file with ! all the diffs, you should be able to pick out the easy ! ones. ! once you do the easy ones, feel free to email me to ! ask about the hard ones. ! ! uriel rsc9: another advantage of keeping a single copy of ! the docs is that the implementation differences are ! clearly documented somewhere, that way they can be ! keept track of, and hopefully be reduced to a minimun ! over time ! ! rsc9 i agree with you in principle. eventually i'll probably ! use cvs branches so that the p9p cvs is essentially ! keeping track of the diffs between the two. ! of course, it's naive to believe that all the implementation ! differences expose themselves in documentation. ! ! uriel ACTION would recomend using something other than cvs ! to keep track of branches, but that is a detail ;) ! rsc9: yes, but it's better to try to keep track of ! them than just ignore them ! ! newsham whats wrong with cvs branches? ! ! __20h__ dho did some sort of new "cvs" -- no code yet. ! ! rsc9 let's not talk about version control. more cadt crap. ! ! uriel newsham: merging patches back and forth from on branch ! to another is quite nasty ! rsc9: yes :) ! ! rsc9 i'm not a power user so cvs is fine. and i know how ! to use it, crappy though it is. ! ! mjl- rsc9: that's what i was trying with acid too (looking ! into the code) ! ! newsham <- likes CVS and their branch management (overall, ! some complaints of course) ! ! rsc9 don't try to diff the acid code. ! ! mjl- will do that when writing docs (which is why i come ! up with these usage patches ;)) ! ! newsham 20h: have you guys looked at larch/arch ? ! ! uriel newsham: you are crazy ;P ! ! mjl- arch... bazaar... yay ! ! noselasd Oh - SCM fest. (/me brings the popcorn) ( *SIGH*) ! ! uriel newsham: I have, lets leave it for antoher time ! ! rsc9 brb. have fun talking about version control. ! ! uriel rsc9: no, no, we gave up already! ! ! mjl- will go for a snack :) ! ! uriel ^_^ ! ! __20h__ newsham, It's not my idea. Replica and Patch is enough ! for me. ! ! noselasd Please. cvs vs whater. Insignificant. ! ! newsham arch has some nice properties (and seems to be tool ! oriented) ! ! noselasd whatever* ! ! musasabi arch is quite complex etc ! ! musasabi point. ! rsc9: So refactoring copy-paste code into common code ! is generally not a desirable change? ! ! __20h__ And who implements metadata in 9p? :P ! ! uriel newsham: we can argue over arch anothter time, lets ! not scare rsc9 off ;) ! ! newsham i have nothing to argue about.. ! ! rsc9 back ! ! uriel newsham: sorry, my english sucks, I mean "discus" ! ! rsc9 musasabi: don't understand the question ! oh, if you're talking about readline, you should be ! able to call read. ! how often do you read passwords anyway? ! ! musasabi rsc9: readline (readln and probably other names), e{malloc,free,realloc} ! and probably others. ! ! __20h__ auth_proxy(); ! ! uriel you could use a gui app for reading pass... ! ! __20h__ Factotum does the password management. ! ! uriel rsc9: it would be interesting to know more of what ! are your plans for p9p ! __20h__: yup ! ! mjl- emalloc and stuff has already been discussed, read ! the archives ! ! rsc9 i don't really have plans. as i need more software, ! i convert it. but i'm at a stable point now. ! ! uriel rsc9: I guess I was thinking more from the POV of bringing ! both code-bases closer.. ! ! __20h__ dtLinux - stable ! ! uriel (I have heard rumours that the venti code in p9p is ! more uptodate than in p9...) ! ! rsc9 one thing on the horizon is adding a c front end compiler ! so that the sources look more the same. ! the sources already look almost identical (acme is ! the big exception but even those changes are simple ! if tedious) ! ! newsham c->c ? ! ! rsc9 yes ! ! musasabi mjl-: actually I was the one proposing it in the archives ! ;) ! ! rsc9 http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/venti ! ! uriel yes, that is a problem, hopefully I will get charless ! to fix up kencc some time this century and the OpenBSD ! guys will take care of the porting ! ! rsc9 no no no. i am not putting a real compiler in. just ! c->c. ! ! uriel rsc9: just curious, why not? ! -pperez ! ! musasabi 8c can be compiled on *nix, but the output is just ! not very usable. ! ! --------- 5 mins ! ! rsc9 because porting a compiler requires making it work ! with all the system libraries and the like. it's too ! much work. ! the p9p goal is to play well with unix. ! ! uriel rsc9: I see your point, still I hope some day someone ! does it ! ! quintile rsc9: the new venti include auth? ! ! newsham musasabi: wouldn't be that hard to fix it to emit useable ! (ie. elf) binaries (some arches already have a linker ! flag) ! ! rsc9 besides, who really wants to keep up with all the library ! conventions on sunos. ! emitting elf is easy. emitting useful debugging is ! much harder. ! i have an 8c that can create hello, world. ! ! Major-Wi ELF -- yuk ! ! newsham blah dwarf. ! ! uriel rsc9: I'd be interested in seeing that(even if trivial) ! ! rsc9 i have yet to hear a good idea about how to do auth ! in venti. ! ! uriel rsc9: what about the venti rewrite ! (which I found out about by reading the notes file ! in rejected patches....) ! ! rsc9 i'm in the middle of rewriting venti. it's a lot faster, ! perhaps a little buggier, and needs a bit of cleanup ! before it will be ready for prime time. ! any other projects people care about? ! ! newsham wouldnt even a very limited amount of auth be significantly ! better than no auth? ! ! uriel rsc9: just curious, but don't you think that this kinds ! of cases the Open Source mantra of "release early, ! release often", could help? ! ! noselasd What projects are there - (at the labs , if any) ? ! ! rsc9 newsham: let's postpone the venti auth. i can't do ! multiple conversations. ! ! newsham ok ! ! Major-Wi i have a cool idea for venti, but it's an expensive ! venture ! ! quintile projects - cross domain auth between servers (for a ! grid). ! ! Major-Wi too complex ! ! rsc9 uriel: release early, release often only works if you ! have time to keep up with the submitted changes. i'm ! focusing on something other than venti. ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, I thought it could help with testing, and ! maybe someone could pick up if you dont' have the time ! to maintain/finish it, but well.. ! ! rsc9 the venti code is available if you want to hack on ! it. it's in the same place as plan 9 ports. module ! name is venti instead of plan9. ! ! uriel quintile: I think that was discused at OSDI and rejected, ! the current model seems good enough, otherwise I would ! recomend you to talk with charles about the Inferno ! auth model.. ! ! newsham uriel: so far nobody's really picked up ron's xen stuff ! if you're looking for stuff to pick up... ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, thanks ! newsham: I know, I'm not saying that it will hapen, ! I'm just saying that it costs nothing to give people ! a chance ! ! quintile uriel: yep, just interested in russ's opinion. ! ! rsc9 lucho helped me find some things. he emailed me. ! ! uriel newsham: didn't kuroneko pick up your spark code? ! ! __20h__ Are there plans to have more than the PC-distribution? ! ! rsc9 as for venti auth, it's just not a priority. ! ! uriel newsham: and didn't ericvh pick up v9fs even if after ! some years? ! ! newsham uriel: so far three people have approached me interested ! in sparc v8 stuff. I dont really know what has become ! of their work.. they may still be working on it. ! ! rsc9 calling it a pc distribution is a little misleading. ! it's a full distribution, it just only installs on ! pcs. ! ! uriel newsham: the thing is that maybe you get something ! useful out of it, maybe not, but the chance is worth ! it, I think, ! anyway, just to be anoying, what about 9load... ;P ! ! rsc9 what about it? ! ! uriel is someone working on it? ! ! rsc9 as far as i know, not much is happening with 9load. ! ! uriel I also have heard(from third hand) of a rewrite of ! 9load.. ! ! rsc9 vbe support got contributed for 9load, though i plan ! to move it out. ! jmk is working on an amd64 port, which includes cleaning ! up 9load some, but it's not a from-scratch rewrite. ! ! uriel ok, I guess that leave us free to fix the anoying IDE ! handling... :) ! ! rsc9 what annoying ide handling? ! ! uriel rsc9: any chances we will get any of that cleaning ! up? ! ! rsc9 any of what? ! ! uriel rsc9: if you don't have your ide devices in the right ! magic convination it wont work ! ! rsc9 huh? ! ! uriel rsc9: 9load clean up... ! rsc9: ever tries to install having your CD-ROM as secondary ! master? ! ! m4dh4tt3 yeah ! ! rsc9 the 9load cleanup will come out when the amd64 port ! is ready. i believe the changes to 9load are pretty ! minimal so don't worry about it. ! ! uriel rsc9: its' a very commonly reported problem ! ! m4dh4tt3 i do it all the time ! ! rsc9 does the kernel work in that situation? ! ! m4dh4tt3 sure does ! ! noselasd uriel: works fine. You just need to type the magic ! sdD1!... and so on :-) ! ! uriel rsc9: it should, I would say... but IIRC it has also ! some problems ! noselasd9: nope ! ! rsc9 ide probing is black magic. the sdata there is supposed ! to be similar to the sdata in the kernel (dma is yanked ! out), so feel free to compare and fix. ! ! m4dh4tt3 all you have to do is specify a different drive to ! load the kernel and the root fs ! ! noselasd uriel: funny, cause I did that yesterday though.. ! ! uriel noselasd9: it doesn't work, and I have gone thru that ! problem at least three different times, the people ! at the 9con can tell you, we were a room packed with ! plan9 users and no one could get it to work until we ! changed the ide config ! ! newsham m4d: isnt that because of the plan9.ini, not the 9load? ! ! rsc9 ide probing is black magic. some systems have buggy ! bioses too. ! ! m4dh4tt3 newsham: iirc, yes ! ! uriel rsc9: yes, that too :( ! ! rsc9 if you want to go after this bug and fix it, please ! do. trust me -- it won't go away on its own. ! ! m4dh4tt3 ide probing is indeeed black magic. i've seen some ! really bizarre stuff ! ! uriel rsc9: ok, thanks ! drawterm.. ! who maintains it? f2f says he doesn't, even if he does... ! ! rsc9 i hate drawterm. andrey is doing a good job maintaining ! the 9p1 drawterm. ! ! uriel I hate dt too, but it's a fact of life.. ! ! rsc9 brucee is busy with other stuff though i think he might ! have a good 9p2000 drawterm at some point. ! dt2k is worth using, and if it didn't crash once in ! a while i'd install it. ! eventually i want to replace drawterm with a collection ! of programs in plan9port. ! ! uriel would be nice if f2f's changes were in the main distro, ! and handled with patch, but f2f won't do it because ! he says "I'm not the maintainer", so he basically maintains ! a fork ! ! rsc9 but progress is slow. i do have ssl working though. ! ! uriel rsc9: where is dt2k? ! ACTION has never seen it, but I know f2f has got the ! code for some ancient version of it somewhere.. ! ! f2f if you notice, uriel, the binaries have disappeared ! from the main distro with a small note pointing to ! ucalgary. ! ! uriel f2f: ah, that is new, and I don't like it, but well... ! ! f2f i think rsc just doesn't want that mess in p9 ! ! uriel would be nice to have it in sources at least ! contrib/f2f? ! ! f2f i'm fine with ucalgary until a better replacement comes. ! this is where the dt2k code is too, at least the latest ! version i have ! ! rsc9 andrey is in the drawterm group now. ! ! uriel cool ! ! f2f rsc, do you want me to merge the dt changes? ! ! rsc9 the 9p1 changes? yes. ! ! f2f ok, will do ! ! rsc9 brucee is swamped with other work. he won't mind. ! ! uriel ACTION would like to know more about dt2k and what ! is going on with it :) ! ! f2f but i'll keep the binaries on the web ! ! rsc9 dt2k works well enough that i use it every day to apply ! patches. ! it crashes occasionally (some x problem) and i restart ! it. ! i never got around to a windows port. ! i don't believe it's the right approach so i am loathe ! to spend time debugging it. ! yes please keep binaries on the web. ! ! uriel rsc9: I think I know many people that would apreciate ! dt2k even without windoze port ! (and I know others that might fix the windoze port) ! ! rsc9 google the 9fans archives for dt2k. i put it out there. ! ! uriel ok, that is the latest version then? ! ! rsc9 sure. ! ! Major-Wi drawterm is pretty solid ! ! uriel ok, will do.. ! ! f2f http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/dt2k.tgz ! ! uriel f2f: that is the latest version too? ! ! f2f i got this from skip and made it compile cleanly under ! X ! ! uriel I see... ! ! f2f that's the latest i've heard about ! ! rsc9 do you use it? does it crash? ! ! f2f it crashes, yes. i don't use it because the alpha blending ! is messed up (BGR vs RGB i believe) ! and it's a bit slower ! ! axelB (what about "replace drawterm with a collection of ! programs in plan9port" and windows?) ! ! Major-Wi BGR? ! ! rsc9 what about it? ! ! uriel axelB: ah, fuck windows! (sorry, could not restis ;P) ! ! axelB just wondering. p9p doesn't do windows, I thought ! ! noselasd uriel: can you ever ? :) ! ! uriel noselasd9: if you knew... ! ! rsc9 eventually plan9port will work on windows. don't care ! enough right now. very happy with my mac. ! ! axelB ok. fine ! ! __20h__ Cygwin? ! ! uriel axelB: buy a mac mini, they are cheap ;) ! ! Major-Wi err, p9p port to windows is a major, hideous task ! ! rsc9 it's not any more work than the original unix work. ! i've done it before. ! ! m4dh4tt3 i miss the mac i had for my previous job ! ! uriel I guess another issue is p9p integration with v9fs ! and similar, but without eric or lucho around I think ! better leave that for other time ! ! rsc9 my position is that p9p will not become dependent on ! v9fs -- it needs to work on systems without v9fs -- ! but i'm perfectly happy if lucho and eric need hooks. ! ! uriel rsc9: sounds reasonable.. ! ! rsc9 we put one hook in already. auth_proxy tries to open ! /mnt/factotum/* before switching to the p9p factotum ! socket. ! ! musasabi Is there a reason plan9 headers don't have #ifdef protection ! agains multiple #includes ? (stdio.h mainly - some ! headers have function prototypes with FILE* and making ! sure stdio.h is included just once adds many trivial ! (unnecessary) changes. ! ! uriel musasabi: that is a well known one, use sane headers ! ! rsc9 don't include headers twice. ! ! uriel exactly ! ! rsc9 if you're compiling legacy code, then use ape. the ! ape stdio.h is protected. ! ! uriel musasabi: feel free to add to the faq ! rsc9: BTW, could you update the running version of ! the wiki, I really need it to make the FAQ page useable.. ! ! Major-Wi Is there a reason plan9 headers don't have #ifdef protection ! agains multiple #includes ? -- YES, YOU are 'sposed ! to get that right ! ! musasabi ACTION uses the "not my code" and "uriel will flame ! me to death for APE" arguments. ! ! rsc9 google for "follow the simple rule" pike ! if it's not your code, you should use ape. ! ! uriel or fix it :) ! ! __20h__ Or delete it. ! ! Major-Wi rm is a swell prgramm debugger ! ! musasabi nontrivial socket code + APE was not very nice so I ! am trying to live with 8c -p. ! ! uriel rsc9: I got some changes to the templates of the wiki, ! I haven't sent them because I have seen that the ones ! in the distribution and the ones in the plan 9 wiki ! are not in sync anyway... ! ! m4dh4tt3 when fixing it means re-writing it, the probability ! that it will get done approaches zero ! ! rsc9 uriel: i think i restarted wikifs ! ! uriel rsc9: let me check again... ! ! [...] ! ! rsc9 gotta go. forgot about another appt.
